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Kushiel's Justice Discussion

x-posted to kushiel_trilogy

And first I'd like to say, I've seen so many similarities between the Kushiel books and the Earth's Children that ever since I read Dart, I was pretty sure Jacqueline Carey was influenced by Jean Auel. There's no doubt at all now. I really think that these books would appeal to most of my EC crowd, so if you've never looked at them, I recommend you at least give Kushiel's Dart a read.



If you haven't finished the book yet, you should really save this post for later so I don't ruin it for you. Seriously.

I'd also like to add: I'm disappointed that we didn't get to see all the Houses of the Night Court. That's a promise she better follow through on in the next book.

Ok, so I sped through it like crazy and am still not quite through processing it. I'll need to read it again and savor it for sure, but my first impression is that I really, really like it. I thought it was better than Scion (which I looked forward to immensely because I'd been wanting to learn about Tiberium). I'm still not sure if I can compare Imriel's books to Phedre's, so I don't know which I like more, but Justice is high on my Squee Spectrum. I bawled several times, and I'm not sure I've cried quite so many times at a book before. At this point, I also feel I could wager with 98% certainty that I know what the next novel is going to be about, and I almost think I could call the title. I won't, though, because we know what happens if you start meddling after divining...

The world itself has always intrigued me. I love the idea of a race descended from Angels, and gods being alive and at work in the world. A lot of people got upset with Scion because of the whole possession thing and felt it was too far 'out there' (disclaimer: my mom's a channeler, so that was right up my alley anyway) and I've even heard some people complain because the Mahrkagir (sp?) and Name of God were beyond their suspension of disbelief. If that's your leanings, you may not like this book. But bindings, old school earth magic, shape-shifting, and the power of love manifested on earth really made this a fun read, IMO. Even with the major plot spoiler certain book sellers let out a year ago, I still enjoyed discovering how it all went down. I mean, didn't we all know last book that Imriel is a Prince of Terre d'Ange and his story will be as such? If you didn't already know she was going to die, and probably gruesomely, then, well, I guess I'm glad I'm not ruining the next book for you. :D

Imriel.

Oh, what a man Imriel has grown into! As I told a friend, I either fell in love with him or Sidonie – I'm not quite sure which. Maybe Imriel, if only for his wonderful line, “Because I will make you beg” and the way he went about doing just that. I'm so glad to see Imri embracing his sexual power as well as falling in love. It seems he's always got to fight against some part of himself, but I'm actually glad it was magic and not angst this time.

He's such an honorable man, and I loved seeing how he grew in this book. He really tried to love Dorelei and do his duty, and watching him as he prepared to become a father was just too sweet. Proving his worth in Clunderry was awesome all around, and even more so as he kept his vow to avenge Dorelei's death.

With Scion, a lot of people didn't like the switch to Imriel's voice after being too used to Phedre's. I think that in Justice, his voice has grown much more similar to Phedre's. I don't know if that was purposeful to show how he matures, or if maybe making him so angsty in Scion was stretching it a bit. Could just be that Carey is more comfortable in that kind of voice. I noticed more parallels to Dart, like speaking about an instance from a much later perspective. It lost some of the immediacy but lets him ruminate and give the 'Could we have changed anything if we knew then?' spiel.

Sidonie...

Now there is a perfect Queen of Terre d'Ange. I hope she gets to, because she'd just rock the realm. I don't have much else to say about that, but I really like her.

The scene where Ysandre discovers them is just too perfect. I'd have expected her to relent and make more amends after the words she threw at Imri and his obvious reaction, but I guess I'll have to wait until next book to find out. She's being more stubborn than fair, which seems out of character. I understand the initial reaction, but having several months to mull it over while half-dead Imri is hunting bear-witches alone in Skaldia makes one think that the Queen would recant. I'm a bit afraid it's more plot device than anything, and I'm hoping like hell that I'm wrong.

I was really surprised at how much I liked Dorelei, too. She wasn't nearly as meek as she seemed with just a passing mention, and I can also empathize with the whole loving the wrong man thing. I really don't think that killing them was the answer. I think a year and a day marriage isn't all that bad, and yeah, if they'd talked to Imri he could have taken more precautions and raised his son right. Oh well, fate's a bitch.

Maslin surprised me, too. I ended up really liking the guy, and that I did not expect.

And, yes, I still like Barquiel L'Envers. Everyone always hates him with a passion, but I always felt he was loathed too much just because Phedre needed a nemesis. Having the books written from her and Imriel's points of view, we read a lot of, “I don't trust him one bit. He's such a bad guy.” and so everyone hates him. I honestly thought he was a nicely fleshed character who always ended up doing the mostly right thing in the end. Sure, he killed people, but influential nobles did that back then. The Stregazzas deserved it. If he and Phedre had worked together instead of her mistrusting him just because Delaunay did, then they could have saved the realm. It pained me all over again to see Imriel hating him just because Phedre did, and now watching Barquiel turn into a nasty guy afterall disappoints me. The whole framing for treason thing bugged me in Scion. I actually loved it when L'Envers rode all night to challenge Imri, and I wish like hell that they could have just fought and come to respect each other. If only Imri hadn't been half-mauled and Barquiel insisting anyway...That was kind of disappointing, but I was glad that he finally cooled off and left without hurting Imriel. I hope he's not an ass in the next one.

It was so wonderful to finally see Imriel and Sidonie together. I think they make a great couple, and I was rooting for that pairing. Especially since she's such a little minx. Rawr! The scene where he took off the crooney-stone to read her letter, ah! Broke my heart. I kind of miss having that kind of all-encompassing passion, and I was reminded of many similar encounters of my own that gave me a nice warm-fuzzy feeling. I think they'd make an excellent King and Queen, and I hope we get to see that in the next book.

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( 48 comments — Leave a comment )
the_picklecat
Jun. 7th, 2007 02:27 pm (UTC)
I quickly scrolled to the bottom of your post so I didn't read the spoilers, but I can't wait to join the discussion! My book arrives today (this morning, I hope so I can take it to lunch with me!) and I'll probably have it finished by Friday night, since I have a good part of the afternoon free for reading tomorrow. I'm looking forward to getting to know Imri more, I'm thinking he's going to really come into himself in Justice...
ahavah
Jun. 7th, 2007 09:17 pm (UTC)
LOL well I commend your self-restraint for skipping this post, and I think it will make the book better for you in the end. I can't wait for you to come back and join the discussion! Too few people have finished it yet, and I'm jonesing. ;)
(Anonymous)
Jun. 7th, 2007 02:29 pm (UTC)
Fine then, I won't read the post! :)
intrepidrayne
Jun. 7th, 2007 02:34 pm (UTC)
Oops that was me.
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softlywhispered
Jun. 7th, 2007 02:41 pm (UTC)
You know, I bought the first book, couldn't read it to save my life. Could not get Into it. And LORD did I try. However I am an owner of 3 of the 4 because I've met Jacqueline, and she's a wonderful woman. Damn I miss Galaxie books in San Diego. I met all the best authors there. :)

I'm sorry I missed your birthday... need an address. *grin*
ahavah
Jun. 7th, 2007 09:34 pm (UTC)
Oh no, that's too bad! I've had that problem with books before. Maybe if you wait a while and try again, you'll be able to get into it more. I hope so, because they're really awesome books! I'd love to meet Carey in person. I've heard she's cool.
for_the_nonce
Jun. 7th, 2007 02:43 pm (UTC)
Didn't have time to read your entire post (I'm late for work! ^^;), but I totally agree that this book was better than Scion. As for spoilers of my own, I'll be so pissed if Alais ends up with Talorcan. Conor for the win. Seriously, I love that kid. They would be perfect together.
ahavah
Jun. 7th, 2007 10:24 pm (UTC)
I can't wait to hear more of your impressions when you have time. I actually would like to see Alais marry Talorcan and realize her Alban dreams. He was pretty understanding and seems like a decent guy, and I realize why he was pissed at Imriel (Dorelei was his sister, right?) Ideally, Alais would do her political marriage thing to Talorcan, but he would let her take Conor as a consort. Now that's progressive!
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amadareneko
Jun. 7th, 2007 06:15 pm (UTC)
((I just typed up a very long comment, and lj ate it -.-))

Mavros: Do you want me to play Valerian to your Mandrake, cousin?

Me: OMGILOVETHISBOOKSOMUCH!!!1111 *melts*

I was sold at that line ^^;; Like you, I wish we had seen all the Houses. I could see Imriel and Sidonie visiting there together in the next book, though. It would be nice.

I'm extremely bitter at "certain book sellers" for the spoilers they let out, but I loved learning so much about Alba.

Imri keeps neatly avoiding situations where he could sleep with another guy - Lucius, the satyr-masked Eglantine adept, Mavros (OH PLEASE). I'd like to see him finally overcome that remnant of the Mahrkagir's torture, but it wouldn't surprise me if he never does.

I laughed aloud reading this book, which I definitely did not do during Scion. And Phedre+Joscelin quit saying "love" every other sentence! I was so excited to hear the Sabaeans and Yeshuites discuss theology, and Joscelin's confident claim about Elua. It was thrilling - 'I refused to lay love on the altar of faith, and instead found my faith in love.' So D'Angeline.

The one thing I'm still kinda curious about is the black ribbon Sidonie's wearing on the cover. This could just be the artist symbolically representing Dorelei+baby's deaths, but ... I dunno. They aren't dead when she is the Sun Princess, and I guess that bothers me.

I'm starting to wonder if Carey is done with Melisande. Like, she's just not gonna bring her back in, ever, because then Imriel would have to see his mother die (especially if he's married Sidonie).

ahavah
Jun. 7th, 2007 10:53 pm (UTC)
Boo on LJ!

Mavros: Do you want me to play Valerian to your Mandrake, cousin?

OMG*pant pant* I know! Why does she keep teasing us with things she has no intention of showing?

I could see Imriel and Sidonie visiting there together in the next book, though. It would be nice.

Oh, great idea! I hope you're right.

I would probably have preferred it if certain dumbasses hadn't loosed the major plot point, but like you, I liked seeing Alba - in peace time! And I also like 'seeing' Imri bare-chested with crimson cape and gold torque. Yum.

And Phedre+Joscelin quit saying "love" every other sentence!

Hear hear on that! I mean, I realize that's their term of endearment to him, but it was terribly overdone in Scion. I almost felt the "My girl" thing was overdone in this book. It wasn't overload like "love", but it would have been more effective if it was used a bit more prudently, imo.

I was so excited to hear the Sabaeans and Yeshuites discuss theology,

That was interesting, but I think that's another part I'll have to pay more attention to. Maybe if I finish rereading the series all in a row, I'll be able to appreciate the philosophy aspects more. I'm kind of stuck on hawt sex and noble Imri right now. ;)

and Joscelin's confident claim about Elua. It was thrilling - 'I refused to lay love on the altar of faith, and instead found my faith in love.' So D'Angeline.

I liked that as well. You know, Joscelin really became super cool at the end of Avatar, and he just gets better & better. "Phedre and I drew lots, and I lost." He's so awesome. I hope maybe we'll get a side novel one day about their Book of Raziel escapades, and it would be awesome as hell if she wrote it from Joscelin's POV.

The one thing I'm still kinda curious about is the black ribbon Sidonie's wearing on the cover.

I wondered about that, too. I was starting to think it had more to do with Imri tying her up, and possibly meant to invoke the Phedre/Marah costume.

I'm starting to wonder if Carey is done with Melisande. Like, she's just not gonna bring her back in, ever, because then Imriel would have to see his mother die (especially if he's married Sidonie).

I disagree. I believe she'll be back hardcore in the next book.


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kethlenda
Jun. 8th, 2007 03:44 pm (UTC)
I really, really loved that there was nothing wrong with Dorelei. You know how in a lot of books, the "other" love interest is either demonized or trivialized, a total bitch or else a milksop, etc.? Dorelei was a wonderful woman and I thought it was heartbreakingly realistic that Imriel just happened to "click" romantically with Sidonie and not with Dorelei. That happens. Love happens where it wants to and there's not much you can do. And I liked that Dorelei smacked Imri down for being self-absorbed and that he learned to love her even though it was a gentler love.

I think that probably Imriel died in the alternate future that Morwen saw. I can't see him abandoning his child voluntarily.

Also love the Faerie/Sidhe echoes in the Brown Bear people.

I love the sex scenes between Imriel and Sidonie. One of the things I wanted and never quite got, in Phedre's books, was a mingling of BDSM and tenderness, because the lover for whom she had the tenderness was Joscelin, who isn't kinky. So she had some great BDSM scenes, but they were in general with patrons or with "bad guys" or people she needed to seduce as a means to an end.

Imriel and Sidonie, experimenting with kink and yet having that overflowing love for each other? Guh.

I suspect Ysandre will come around. Ysandre gets mad about things and is stubborn for a time, then relents in the end.

I, too, like Barquiel. I like that he stands in opposition to the main characters but isn't evil per se. He's just a guy with his own objectives.

The next book will almost certainly deal with Melisande. Imri's going to have to come to terms with her in some way, in person, before he can call his adventure over.
ahavah
Jun. 8th, 2007 04:13 pm (UTC)
Dorelei was a wonderful woman and I thought it was heartbreakingly realistic that Imriel just happened to "click" romantically with Sidonie and not with Dorelei. That happens. Love happens where it wants to and there's not much you can do. And I liked that Dorelei smacked Imri down for being self-absorbed and that he learned to love her even though it was a gentler love.

I'm with you 100%. I wish she hadn't died.

I think that probably Imriel died in the alternate future that Morwen saw. I can't see him abandoning his child voluntarily.

I agree. And I don't see him allowing his son to lead an army over to Alba if he was alive, either. But if they'd at least talked to him, he could have been sure to instil the right foundation for his son and make arrangements to see that he's taken care of and that horrible stuff never happens. You know, I wanted SO bad for someone to try to save the baby, maybe cut it open and find out it was a freaking girl...


I love the sex scenes between Imriel and Sidonie. One of the things I wanted and never quite got, in Phedre's books, was a mingling of BDSM and tenderness, because the lover for whom she had the tenderness was Joscelin, who isn't kinky.


Me too! It gives a much better perspective to show it done in love in an actual relationship than just violent assignations (not that those weren't hot, too!) Plus, I'm glad to see they'll be some switching aspect in there, since that's the wonderful reality I share with my Love.

I suspect Ysandre will come around. Ysandre gets mad about things and is stubborn for a time, then relents in the end.

I agree, but if I'm right about it being the plot device I think it is, she won't come around til the very end. *sigh* I hope I'm wrong on that count.

I, too, like Barquiel. I like that he stands in opposition to the main characters but isn't evil per se. He's just a guy with his own objectives.

Exactly! And he's always been loyal to the Crown. One of my favorite scenes was when they visit him in Avatar, after Imriel went missing. That's the Barquiel I enjoy.

The next book will almost certainly deal with Melisande. Imri's going to have to come to terms with her in some way, in person, before he can call his adventure over.

I agree, although if my suspicions are correct (and I really hope they are in this case), then he'll do much more than 'come to terms' with her. :)
(Deleted comment)
ahavah
Jun. 9th, 2007 11:14 pm (UTC)
Don't apologize for joining in! I'm so glad to have someone to squee with, too.

That was officially the best line, ever. I so wish it would happen. :| Maybe Sidonie will be open-minded?

That was my second favorite line, actually. LOL I liked the "I will make you beg". And I have a feeling Sidonie would be quite open-minded, so I hope we see some of that going on.

And Maslin - I'm SO with you! I felt so silly being all "Awwwww" over head boiling. He surprised me, though, and I was glad. I was awfully sorry to see him stay in Vralia.

Revenge, love, honor, survival - it all seemed much more satisfying than the intrigue and weird love affair with Claudia in Scion.

Agreed. I mean, I have a little bit of cuckoldry to my kink, so I wouldn't have minded the Claudia storyline altogether, I just couldn't understand WHY Imri was so completely taken with her. I mean...he could do so much better, and she wasn't a very good character, IMO. Learning covertcy? Please. We would have all rather seen that same damn thing go down, only with Phedre. Or at least someone half way worthy of Imriel.
redsunsetxiii
Jun. 10th, 2007 10:28 pm (UTC)
okies, so I JUST finished the book XD and the first thing I do is remember that post you put up on the Kushiel community and so here I am, needing a place to discuss it haha XD

and just wow. I haven't felt this giddy about one of JC's books since Chosen. just seeing Imriel actually develop into a young man was just great. usually I don't like lead male characters, but seeing Imriel so conflicted, I just had to love him. ^_^ and Sidonie too! the development of her character and their relationship was just...great, though a little painful.

I was also surprised at how I liked Dorelei's character. after that whole spoiler on the web, I thought she'd just be a disposable character for a plot device. it was good to see how despite the situation, Imriel found some sort of happiness and love with her and with that became a better person.

one minor thing that bugged me though... the last part with him hunting Berlik just dragged for me. I couldn't believe that it took so long O_o it was like, another year? the whole spy thing and whatnot was a bit much ^^; maybe I was too impatient to see Imriel and Sidonie back together haha.

so overall, I gotta say the character development was top notch, a huge reason why I enjoyed this book more than Scion. although the basis of the plot is a love torn by politics and whatnot, I'm glad Carey takes it a step further. ^_^

as for the next book, Melisande will be on the cover and taking a huge role, especially after she hears that her son and Sidonie are together! haha, just my guess, but I'm thinking Carey is storing up everything about the Guild for the last installment.

and one last thing, the conversations between Phedre and Joscelin had me laughing out loud at times XD I'm glad Carey can write some humor into her story.
ahavah
Jun. 12th, 2007 12:02 am (UTC)
okies, so I JUST finished the book XD and the first thing I do is remember that post you put up on the Kushiel community and so here I am, needing a place to discuss it haha XD

You have no idea how happy that made me! I sped through it like mad and got done before all my friends, so I've been excited every time I see a new response. :)

I pretty much agree with everything you said! I understand why the Berlik thing had to take that long, though. If they'd been crossing countries at warp speed, it wouldn't have had that very human side of the struggle that it needed. I actually liked getting to see how they'd pick up someone's trail weeks later, but I had similar sentiments. I still think it was preferable to his & Claudia's large section of Scion, LOL.

so overall, I gotta say the character development was top notch, a huge reason why I enjoyed this book more than Scion. although the basis of the plot is a love torn by politics and whatnot, I'm glad Carey takes it a step further. ^_^

Amen, AMEN! I was so pleased with almost all of the characters and their growth. Imri & Sidonie were both especially special, but I also liked Maslin - and loved the peek into the secrets of Naamah's Priests.

as for the next book, Melisande will be on the cover and taking a huge role,

Agreed! If an artist can do her justice, of course. HUGE role. The next one should be absolutely drenched in her shadow.

and one last thing, the conversations between Phedre and Joscelin had me laughing out loud at times XD

So many people miss Phedre's POV, but I'm so glad to see their relationship (and her stature, actually) from an outside point of view. Their interplay is just awesome, and you can totally see how they're absolutely perfect for each other - and how most of the realm can't fathom it. I think I've liked Joscelin's growth the most, actually. Imri's a close second, but Joscelin keeps surprising me with his level of cool.
(no subject) - shahrizai - Jun. 13th, 2007 06:12 am (UTC) - Expand
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(Anonymous)
Jun. 12th, 2007 03:23 am (UTC)
I, too, am an EC reader! I swear, all JC had to write was "his brow furrowed" and Joscelin would be Jondalar, end of story!

There's one niggling, nit-picky issue I've had with the Imriel trilogy, and that's his friends. To be honest, I adore Mavros. He's proven (thus far, JC does have a bit of Machavellian mischief in her) to be a loyal friend who will do anything for Imri...but we never see Imri returning the favor. It seems that Mavros bends over backward-- potentially putting his reputation and loyalty into question by being a Shahrizai complicit with Melisande's son--and never gets anything but a, "Gee, you're a great pal." I'm waiting for him to say, "So, Imri, what have you done for me lately?"

Sidonie's personality surprised me, but it was absolutely delicious.
ahavah
Jun. 12th, 2007 08:09 pm (UTC)
Oh man, I wish I knew who this was! lol

all JC had to write was "his brow furrowed" and Joscelin would be Jondalar, end of story!

I thought the same thing! I was really getting worried there through Chosen, but I'm glad Joscelin is way cooler.

I agree with everything else you said, too. I'm almost afraid Mavros will screw him over in the end, but I hope he really is just that good a friend for family. I have a feeling that family is a big deal to the Shahrizai, so I hope that's it.
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blackstoneca
Jun. 12th, 2007 05:44 pm (UTC)
More then willing to enter in on the discussion. I lived this book, for mainly the same reasons you did. I was a treasure and I hope her next book (btw in an online interview she revealed its going to be titled Kushiel's Mercy and will be out late 2008).

I love Carey in that we don't ahve to wait 2 1/2 three years for the next book (Unlike Robert Jordna, but he has a good excuse now a days, and hope he recovers) or George R R Martin, who made su wait 2 years from the first release date of Feast of Crows and left us hanging in my oppinon with half a book
ahavah
Jun. 12th, 2007 08:12 pm (UTC)
Kushiel's Mercy - I'm glad somebody knows! Do you know where the interview was?
blackstoneca
Jun. 12th, 2007 09:22 pm (UTC)
http://fantasybookcritic.blogspot.com/2007/03/interview-with-jacqueline-carey.html

Here, this guy also did a very nice review of the book, and my comments on it were also acknowledged Yes I am still geeking out over it as it is not every day my comments are called "insightful"
ahavah
Jun. 12th, 2007 09:28 pm (UTC)
Thank you for the link! I'm saving it to read another day when I have more time to devote to it, but I'm looking forward to it.
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shahrizai
Jun. 13th, 2007 06:09 am (UTC)
Barquiel L'Envers became my favorite male character stand-in back in the day when Delaunay kicked the bucket. Anyway, yeah, I think he is so OOC in these later books, he's probably gone senile or something. The L'Envers of the first trilogy would never have done something so open as the treason thing in Scion. He was never a very friendly guy to Phedre, but after realizing she wasn't in game with Melisande? Grudging respect.

He's a great asshole, but never so outright with the big insults.

The whole thing with Morwen and wanting to get with Imri's child just reminded me so much of Lynn Flewelling's most recent Skala trilogy. There's the same earth magic, seductive witch thing going on there.
ahavah
Jun. 14th, 2007 04:09 pm (UTC)
I feel the exact same way about Barquiel! That's really the only glaring flaw that I can find in the books. I agree - the man of the first trilogy wasn't the same guy they're showing in Imri's books. It makes me sad.

At any rate, I'm not familiar with Lynn Flewelling, but I'm glad to have another name to look into. :D
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